The following transcript has been edited for readability. Timestamps have been removed and minor transcription errors corrected. Speaker comments and context have been preserved.

Opening Remarks

Rich Portelance

Hello, everyone. This is Rich Portelance from the EdGate Powers Podcast. We are in the fourth quarter of 2026, and this quarter, EdGate is focusing on the state of standards, and our theme for this year’s state of standards is “CTE Rising: How Skills, Credentials, and Career Readiness are Reshaping the Education Standards Landscape.” 

With me today is a good, longtime friend. We've known each other probably for over 10 years now–Don Fraser Jr., founder of Fourth Horizon LLC, and an innovator who helps education leaders be future-ready. I'm going to let Don introduce himself, but I want to remind everyone that below in the description, there will be a link to the upcoming webinar, which will be held on December 10th. We're going to have some incredible education leaders on what we're calling a leadership forum. Don today is going to help inform some of that conversation with his background. So, Don, without further ado, I'll let you introduce yourself, and we'll go from there.

Don Fraser Jr.

Great. Rich, it’s great to be with you on this Friday morning, and, you know, thanks for the invitation. It's always good to connect around these topics. And what I'll just say about my background that makes me, I guess, somewhat qualified to have this conversation is that I've been in education for longer than I wanted to admit–a couple… closing in on three decades. 

And I've seen it. I've been very fortunate to see it and experience it from lots of different perspectives. I started as a high school counselor, so I've been in schools; I've taught folks who want to be in schools; I have worked at a national association; I have created an edtech startup; and, you know, the last 12 years I’ve been at a national nonprofit focused on the future of work and learning, working primarily with two- and four-year colleges and employers for better alignment, right? This idea of designing education toward the future of work was novel and confusing when I first started there in 2015, but if you ask anybody, they’d say, “Absolutely. Isn't that what we're doing now?” 

So, you know, so, my lens that I think I'll bring today, Rich, for this conversation is about the student, right? It's not just about policy, and what we should be doing, and what we can be doing, but it's about what do we need to do for every learner, right? And that learner, when I say and use the word learner, I'm talking about folks who are not just in K-12 or in college, but we're all learners, right? Today, I hope to learn something by talking with you. So that's what I'm doing here, you know, and I'm looking forward to the conversation.

Discussion

Rich Portelance

Well, outstanding, and thank you, Don. And, you know, it's a great approach to any conversation, and I would agree with you. You know, I do these things because I love to hear perspective, and learn, and become more informed about what's happening out there, and what we can do to affect our future and make it better for the students and folks that do want to learn. 

So, let's start right in with the students. When students look at the connections between their education and their future careers, where are we serving them well and where are we missing the mark, Don?

Don Fraser, Jr.

Yeah. I mean, this is a great question that… First, you have to even wonder, are students looking at that connection, right? And when? Excuse me, but to your question around when are we serving them well, I think it's when there's something we're doing or asking that forces them to think about what they're learning and employment possibilities. You know, I'm steering clear of the word “career,” you know, you and I, we've had that conversation–I don't use the word anymore. So I'll use the words, “employment possibilities” or “employment journey.” For example, you know, something that forces them, right, to think about it. That might be an interest assessment, right? We've probably all taken those, right? Or some type of survey. A lot of folks are doing things like job shadowing or, you know, or an internship, right? And that makes this intentional connection, and that word, “intentional,” right, is critical here. So, it's this intentional connection between learning and a particular job, right? The college major–that's a forcing mechanism. So, I, again, I think when we're serving students well around this idea of making that connection between what they're learning and what they might be doing for work, it's when it's structured around something that makes them connected. Because, you know, they're not going to do it on their own, necessarily. I mean, I have lots to say about all those examples that I just used, but they are forcing mechanisms, right? And when we do them with intentionality and we do them with purpose, and we do it with understanding, we can do a better job. So, that's when I think we're serving them well.

When they're missing the mark, I'll say that, you know, probably everything that I just laid out, you know, misses the mark at some point, right? So those are examples of forcing mechanisms, but those forcing mechanisms don’t actually mean they’re working well, right? So, I feel pretty strongly about that, you know, that we're more often than not missing the mark because they're not intentionally connected to their learning, or meeting them where they are in their stage of development. And that part of it–you know, the stage of development–where a young person is, where anybody is, right, in their own growth, their own experiences, you know… Too often than not, it's like this fleeting moment that we have with a young person, right? That experience, that job shadow, that internship, you know, it's like, “poof,” it's gone; I did something. And because of that, you know, I don't think it's terribly sticky or really influences the decisions that students are going to make about their learning. You know, I think that this idea of making something “sticky” and recognizing, you know, the importance of that, I think it has to start with acknowledging where they are developmentally, right? And I don't think we do that very well. We think, like, “Alright, you're in eighth grade, so we should do this,” but it's pretty dang hard, right, for a young person to understand what it actually means to walk in the shoes of someone who does some particular job role. I mean, come on, right? Like, you know, we could put lots of… You know, they could watch interviews, and they could talk to people, but like, until you're doing that work, you don't really get it, right? So we're putting a real emphasis on some of these moments as the ways in which we will help make that connection. But I think we're not– Again, we're missing the mark because we're not necessarily helping them understand where they are right now in their thinking, what they're doing, and then not letting it go, right? Like, not having it just be a moment. We need to commit more of an ongoing effort to it, right? So, it needs to be something that's woven in, in the same way that we're talking about, you know, whatever math we're learning this year. So –And until we can make that kind of commitment and not just have these moments, we're not going to get there.

Rich Portelance

So, that's an interesting point, Don, and, you know, you talk about the commitment, and I think there's some competing forces to that–there's velocity. You know, the change of our world is happening at a rapid pace, and there's the distance between what a… an advisor, let's say, or a teacher, and the real world. Those distances are extending because things are changing fast, and as things change fast, more distance, you know, occurs. 

So, how do we bridge that for students to make it more relevant, more… I guess… more achievable, to allow some of those experiences to happen, because we know–and I think part of what you were just touching on is–the reality of a one-to-one connection and allowing a young person to experience and be hands-on with something is much more powerful than telling them about something, or seeing something, or reading something on their iPhone, right? It's, you know, having that experience that makes the difference. How do we bridge that gap?

Don Fraser, Jr.

Well, I think it goes back to time on task again, right? Because on a given day, I'm following you or I'm not following you as a young person, right? So, if today's the day we do that, you know, job shadow, maybe I'm, you know, I'm dialed in, but, you know, there's a good chance I'm also not, right? So if it's just these fleeting moments, then we're not going to get there, you know? 

So, I think with consistency and doing it over time, that's when young people have their “aha’s,” right? And that's when we'll see them having their “ahas,” not just on a given day when we look across the room to see, like, how are they digesting this thing, right? Is it making sense to them? So, you know, I think it's just about a matter of time in the same way that we know, like, you know, we're not going to get there with any kind of other curriculum without extended focus and time on it. And, you know, and then in those moments, you can see where it's working or not working and pivot accordingly. So, I really think it's just that we have not yet committed the time to it. And it's really important, right? I think it's really important. 

Rich Portelance

So, the title of this campaign is “CTE Rising,” and, you know, that implies that there's this push or opportunity that exists within career and technical education (CTE), and that educators are reaching for more of that because of whatever forces that are occurring that require CTE to start to rise and bubble up. What do you see in that paradigm, and what does that mean for students? Because it implies that it's less about college and maybe, you know, there's this other force that's coming up. Do you see that, and do you see that to be a good thing?

Don Fraser, Jr.

Well, I think anything that helps young people understand possibilities is a good thing, right? And, you know, you and I, when we left high school, you know, there were probably a handful of things that we knew we could be doing, right? You go straight into the world of work, you go to college, go to the military, you know, right? Like, there are a handful of things. Nowadays, there are so many more possibilities, right? And, you know, you and I were talking about this–I think there's this, you know, for the people who are in front of young people right now, you know, what is their experience with CTE, right? You know, as we know, there's still, like, this stigma, like it's less than, right? And if you have a father or a mother who worked in CTE, you know, and were working long days, and they probably said to their kids, “I don't want you to live this life that I'm living. I want you to go to college and be better than I was.” So, we're still carrying this narrative, right? And that trickles down to the people in front of young folks, right? Whether those are counselors, or teachers, or what have you. So, we're not talking about it in the same way with the same enthusiasm as we're talking about college, for example, right? 

But if you look at all the possibilities right now, particularly when you start talking about AI, what job roles will be impacted, and what job roles won't be impacted, it becomes even more important to consider it, right? And young people, I mean, when do you really know what it is you're good at, capable of doing, and want to be doing every single day, right? Like, when does that actually happen for somebody, right? So, if we're not helping them understand the possibilities, then we're limiting them. And unfortunately, you know, there are too many people who are, you know, acting as gatekeepers, right? And not ensuring that young people understand that the world of CTE is something that everybody should consider in the same way that you'd consider any of those other possibilities.

Rich Portelance

I would agree, and I think that more and more in that paradigm, we have to give the students a voice in what's happening because they're going to be more in tune to things than I think people are giving them credit for.

So, a question: what changes when we design learning experiences with students? And can you share an example of student input challenging an assumption that maybe a leader had that led to a better solution?

Don Fraser, Jr.

Yeah. So, I mean, this is a great question, and certainly we're not doing it enough, right? Giving students a voice. I mean, by nature, teaching is from me in the front of the classroom to you, the learner, right, sitting at your desk or in your chair. So, you know, and, “Quiet, please, I'm talking,” right, so I don't want to hear your voice until I ask for your voice. You know, so we still operate in that way more often than not. But when we actually do call students in, when we ask them about what would work for them and why, and when something might not work and why, it changes everything, right? It changes the power dynamics; it changes the way they think about you, it changes the way that they see themselves, right? It changes their sense of agency, right? “You actually want my opinion on this, right?” And these are things that we tend not to ask of young people, right? We go, “heads down,” we build because we think we know, and then we roll it out and, you know, if it works, it works, and if it doesn't, it doesn't. And if it doesn't, it's probably the student's fault, not that we designed it poorly. So, I think when we're designing learning experiences with students, the chances of you hitting the mark are much higher, right? They're not going to mislead you; they're going to tell you exactly why that thing is… Or is going to work for them or why not, right? 

As far as an example, you know, some of it exists in populations that I've had a chance to work with over the course of my career… There's that word. And… parent learners, for example, right? So, these are folks who are enrolled in college and have children of their own. Most colleges are not designed to serve that population. They don't even know how many of those folks exist on their campus. And there are so many things, intrinsically, that institutions are doing that tell those parent learners, “Keep your kids out of here. Just show up with you.” Right? But it's not about– Yet, at the same time, like, that's everything, right, for that parent, and the reason they're there is for their kid. And… we did some work when I was at the Education Design Lab focusing on that population, and we brought parent learners in. We brought a group of them in as designers, where they looked at critical issues. And, you know, they are the experts at the end of the day, right? So when we're listening to the young folks and the individuals who are experts, I think that's when you start to really understand and hear some things that you actually weren't considering. 

A great little anecdote that I'll tell: I remember– I actually don't remember who it was who was talking in this, but I remember her story. She talked about working in a school, a high school, where there was like, an unbelievable level of truancy, and she was tasked with solving it. You know, the principal comes and says, “I want you to solve our problem with truancy.” And she thought about the ways that she would go about doing this. What did she do? She decided, “I'm going to bring in the biggest offenders.” So, she brought, like, four young–I think they were all boys–in, and… She probably first had to find them, but then brought them in, and talked to them, and said, “Hey, you tell me, like, why don't you come to school? Like, you know, what's happening? And I want you to help me. Like, I have to solve this, but you are the experts on it. You're the ones who are truant all the time. You help me solve it.” And these young folks got to work with her, right? Like, for one, they all of a sudden had a purpose to be there, right? Their opinion mattered; they were seen as experts–they probably never heard that before. And they came up with a solution that actually changed, you know, like, improved it dramatically. And I think these–and if I recall correctly–I think these young folks presented it to the school board, you know? So when you call people in, when you call young people in and respect that they do know things, right, that's when power dynamics change, that's when they believe in themselves in a different way, and that's when you actually hit the mark.

Rich Portelance

I love the answer, Don, and I couldn't agree more. And a quick anecdotal story that I know you've heard before, but when we started CareerPath back in 2014, it was predicated on some work we did at Valparaiso University School of Law, and they were having trouble getting kids to go to the career center, so they asked us to help to solve it. So, one of the first things we did, we interviewed the people at the law school career center, and then we went to the students, and we interviewed about a dozen students, and they had this 87-page book that they were putting out that had all the things that the students need to do. And if you followed it, you would end up in a good place. But it was a, you know, it was a coaster in their dorm room–no one ever read it. And we said, "Well, what's gonna, you know, get you engaged?" And, you know, they said, “Put it on my phone, make it have some– remind me when I need to do things.” And, you know, we ended up building that app and comparing them to their cohort so they knew someone else had completed the task, or what percentage of students completed it, and it completely changed the paradigm for their career center. I mean, it was night and day. 

And so, you know, to your point that getting the students involved, giving them credence for knowing things and knowing their own mind is such a critical component to finding some success here.

Don Fraser, Jr.

Absolutely. 

Rich Portelance

And so, you know, how can we better engage students to get their opinion in a more normalized, kind of societal way at our public schools today?

Don Fraser, Jr.

Yeah, this isn't hard, right? This really is not hard. Somehow we think it's hard, but it's not, right? It's just, what are you prioritizing at the end of the day? It's leadership that has to decide if we want to hear from students, right? If I have culture issues at my school, what I'm doing as a leader is pulling– I'm having a conversation, right? Like, you know, the first few days of school, you know, people are settling in, etc. I end the school year asking a series of questions, right, of students, and then I spend the summer thinking about ways I could bring young people in to help solve this, right? Like, just help bang on it some, right? What aren't we doing well here?

First, just own that you're probably not doing some things well. Let's be real, right? And have some humility, right? And allow students to tell you what you're not doing well, and then think about ways to solve for that with them. And it's not that hard. It really is not that hard. Some people just don't want to hear it. “I don't want to hear from the students about that. What do they know?” Right? You know, just the things we're talking about, right? But if you want to make real change that matters, that will be felt, that, you know, that students will support, then it requires listening to their voice, including them in part of the solutioning, and then working with them on the delivery as well. You know, not just rolling it out like you think you can just let it fly, and, you know, we heard from them, and then we went and did this thing, right? If it didn't work, “Hey, we listened to you, and you said it would work. It didn't. That's your fault,” right? And I think it's just creating a little space for that. It could be a council. It doesn't have to be the whole school. But, you know, you can invite people in, you know? Just invite them in. 

Rich Portelance

I love it. Now, when we started doing some work together, I think it was around 2016, there was a thing called “soft skills,” and now, more appropriately, they're called durable skills. And it might have been around that time it started to shift to creative problem solving, critical thinking, etc. How do you explain durable skills to a student, and where are they so important alongside the technical skills students develop through CTE?

Don Fraser, Jr.

Well, first of all, they have them, right? We all have these skills. To what extent they're developed is the question. So, if I'm sitting with a young person to explain these skills, it starts by me asking them to tell me something that they do, right? Something that they like: it's a hobby, it's a job, it's a sport. And, you know, they say, "Alright, you know, I work as a barista." Oh, okay, you work as a barista. So what do you do in that role? Right? And then they tell you things they do. And I will ask them, because to what extent they understand the term, right? It's probably– they probably don't. So I'll say what– what– you know, other than, like, the technical skills that you need to operate the machine and things like that, what other skills do you use in that role? And they say, “Well, what do you mean? What other skills?” Like, human skills, you know? And I have to give an example. You know, I say, like, problem-solving or something like that. And then they pause, and they think, and you know, in this case, an example might be communication. You know, “I feel like I've gotten better at communication.” Oh, why? “Well, I work this– I work the busy shift, which means that I have these customers like Don who come in here with this complex order that I have to listen to, and over my shoulder I got Rich, my boss, and I have to speak to Rich differently than I speak to the customers. Oh, and by the way, I'm also learning Spanish from one of my colleagues, right? So I think my communication skills have really developed. And then, you know, you hear that come from them and think like, that's amazing, right? But nobody's ever asked them this, and it's serendipitous, right, that they're just record– just happening, right? So… you know, I think it's part of our job to help engage young people in understanding what the skills are, right? 

In the same way that, you know, it was a guerrilla campaign when we were encouraging young people to think about college–we would put college names in the hallways and sweatshirts with colleges and things– What about the names of these skills, right? Because if you talk to employers, you're going to see the top 10 skills. What if we, you know, papered those around the school? Put it in front of young folks and then ask them questions like, you know, in what way are you building these skills, right? So, it's just about, again, awareness, definition around these skills, and then asking them where they think it's showing up in their life. And they can tell you!

Rich Portelance

And, you know, some of those service-based jobs are some of the best trainers for durable skills, you know? 

Don Fraser, Jr.

Absolutely.

Rich Portelance

Being a bus person, you know, creative problem-solving every single shift, and communication, and, you know, interpersonal skills, etc. So yeah, connecting those dots for the students, understanding, you know, these skills help you in these ways, and some of the things you do currently are providing you real value for the future. I love that concept, Don. And you mentioned the college banners. That was something that I know we've talked about before, but that was a successful experiment, right?

Don Fraser, Jr.

It worked, right? It worked for sure. 

Rich Portelance

Yeah.

Don Fraser, Jr.

You know, young people asked questions; they believed, you know, they… they're like, "Yeah, my room is…” you know, fill in the blank college, right? You know, they were championing just in the way that we hoped they would. It gave them belief, right? And skills, you know, I mean, young people are getting graded all the time, right? So they, in a lot of ways, are getting beat down, right? You know, it's like, “Ah, I didn't get a good grade on something. I've got red marks all over my paper,” or whatever it is, right? Skills and assets, you have them. How often are we telling young people that they have these skills and assets, you know? So in a world where they're struggling just to, you know, achieve, sometimes you need to know that, you know, beyond the content and achievement around content, you have these skills. 

And, you see it in elementary school, right? It's like, that's what the report card looks like. It's those skills, right? It's not about grades and a class. It's like, you know, Rich works well with others, right? And then we just let go. Come middle school, we're just, you know, cramming content and we forget that, you know? But that was really important. As they age, it means even more to them, right, to hear it. But we don't tell them.

Rich Portelance

One of the skills that I have found, looking back at my, you know, 30-plus-years of life and entrepreneurship, is resilience. You know, being able to adapt to new environments, to accepting failure, and learning, and moving forward. And you know, people talk in our circles about, you know, admiration for folks who have been able to pick themselves up from, you know, or learn from failures and then have these great successes. How do we translate that back into a classroom that gives D’s and F’s and admonishes students for failing? It's just such a… It doesn't make sense, right? When you think about it in those terms. But we need to teach them that resilience. What's your thought there, Don? How do we change that paradigm?

Don Fraser, Jr.

Yeah. Well… Well, we have to believe that failure actually is an important thing, right? Something that we should allow. I mean, we, you know, we live in a very protected world right now where we don't want young people to experience anything that feels remotely like failure, right? We want to avoid it at all costs. And that's just not how we should be living, right? You know, let them try, let them fail–you learn from it, you talk to them about it, right? And in schools, you know, failure happens in lots of different ways. It happens socially, it happens academically, right? And, you know, and I'm using this word failure really as a sort of proxy for just experiences, right? Life experiences, right? You know, you make some different choices; you wish you made a different– you know, another one; you wanted to talk to somebody, it didn't work, you know, like, ah, that failed, right? So, asking students, again, and celebrating those moments, like, “How many people in this class failed something this week? Let's not talk about academics, right? Let's talk about just life. Like, tell me about a time this week where you did something that didn't work out the way you'd hoped, right? Like, I'm sure everybody in the classroom could tell you something, right? Or break out into groups and share,” right? 

So, this goes back to, I think, the first response; I use the word “intentionality,” right? You know, we don't get to these places without intentional time on task, right? And we have to believe that matters, right? So, normalizing failure because it happens, and then helping young people understand how you recover from it, right? We all know, and employers now are scrambling to find young people who are resilient. They're worried, right? Like, they're coming up too coddled, and they haven't had chances to fail. You know, they're going to fail in this role, right? So, I need to know that this young person has had those experiences, right? And there are just also some folks who are resilient as hell, but that's just how they live their lives. They don't know that it's a skill, right? “That's just like my day-to-day.” And they don't understand that that's actually currency, right? 

So… So we've just got work to do on it, you know, but these, you know, the durable skills, we have to both help young people understand what they are, and then as you mentioned with CTE, you know, the technical skills, they're complementary, right? In some cases, they're more valuable in technical skills than technical skills are in certain jobs. So, they’re really important. 

Rich Portelance

Another point to that, Don, is, you know, how important employers emphasize these durable skills, and we hear that, you know, almost every employer out there asks for a delivery of students who have these durable skills. And it doesn't matter if they're going towards a CTE path or going through a college path. So, I guess the comment I have is that durable skills are critical no matter what direction a student goes in, so why not bake it into curricula now? Like, let's enhance these, right?

Don Fraser, Jr.

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and there are ways that can be done, in the same way that we, like, we talk about labeling things, right? It has to be transparent first of all, like it has to be visible, right? For young folks and learners of all kinds. For example, I remember having a syllabus when I was teaching school counseling, and what you wanted to do and needed to do on a syllabus was show how the things that you're teaching align to the standards, and the standards all had some number, right? And you would have to label it on the syllabus. This thing is “that,” and I'm covering it, right? 

So, there are very easy ways if you can say, like, this thing that we're doing–this exercise, this task–this is creative problem solving. Right? This is empathy. This is “this” and– Right? Just call it what it is, and help young people understand that that's what that moment was about. Not just the content, but the experience allowed me to understand that I was building that skill. I was practicing that skill through that thing.

Rich Portelance

Yeah. And I think we're seeing more of that in some of the innovation along the paradigm of technology and standards management, which is, how do we bake in those skills so that they appear, and then we can trace them back to classes so they can say, "Oh, this kid, they took this class, and there was empathy built into the curriculum." So, you know, we can assume that they have exposure. So, you know, that this student is more likely to be able to express that and have that particular skill, right?

Don Fraser, Jr.

Yeah.

Rich Portelance

Yeah. I just want to remind everyone to please register for the upcoming executive forum on December 10th. The link is down below. I'm talking to Don Fraser, Jr. today, and, you know, this has been a terrific conversation so far, Don, and I want to touch on innovation with a purpose, and as AI and new technologies reshape education at work, how do we distinguish innovation that improves students’ opportunities from innovation that simply adds another tool?

Don Fraser, Jr.

Yeah. This is a great question. You know, I'm going to start by sharing a definition of innovation that I like. A guy by the name of Pete Foley, you know, I think he's a– I mean, he's an innovator, you know, at the core. He'd probably just describe himself as, you know, all sorts of things: an artist, a scientist, you know, a musician, a consultant. But he said that innovation is a great idea executed brilliantly and communicated in a way that's both intuitive and fully celebrates the magic of the initial concept, and it's this part right here: it needs to either create a new market or radically change an existing one. I've drawn on that particular definition a lot. And when you ask the question about whether it's, you know, something that improves students’ opportunities, or it's something that just is another tool, I think it's safe to say that we're still trying to answer that question. 

I think we know that introducing a new tech tool with the hope that it's adopted across the board, works for every student, and helps us achieve the academic results we want is a mistake. You know, it's just not that simple. You know, I think we need to start with a series of critical questions that center on what students need–all students, all scenarios. Then you ask how the technology, in this case AI, can support them in those different moments. You know, I've been doing this work for a while, and I don't think I've… I mean, when mobile came out, I was like, you know, really geeking out about that. That is like incredible technology, right? You know, but AI, when I think about, you know, AI as a technology, I believe that it can help teachers do what they've struggled to do, which is to give each student what she or he needs to be successful. Right? I mean, you're a visual learner. Can I provide this to you in a PowerPoint? Yeah. English isn’t your first language? Great. I can share it in your native language. Instead of just injecting AI, though, let's do an audit, right? Let's ask all the right questions. Ask students: How do you think AI can help you be successful? How can AI help you develop? Right? If we start there, again, it goes back to giving students a voice, right? And understanding that they can help us figure this thing out, right? Meanwhile, AI is just showing up in the tools we already use, right? All of a sudden, you've got an AI element, and you're trying to figure out how to, you know, how to use that. 

But we're still… You know, I think in education, it's a more… I think the path to how AI will help us is clearer than in the workforce. You know, in the workforce you've got different roles, different industries. And, you know, I think it's… My sense is that employers, you know, my conversations with employers, they're still trying to figure it out. They don't quite yet know how it's going to impact their business, right? I don't know if you saw this–a timely question, Rich–the American Staffing Association (ASA) just came out with a new report that was about which jobs are going to be most impacted, most at risk from AI and increasing automation, and you should check it out. They thought white-collar workers are going to feel the most impact–software quality assurance analysts, testers, writers and authors, data entry keyers… And ones that weren't, you know, ones that weren't going to be as impacted were the ones we were talking about in CTE, right? So, it's interesting. We need to keep an eye on it, right? Because it's changing all the time. But it's not as clear in the workforce.

Rich Portelance

So, I remember back in 2001–you know, dating myself–thinking to myself as I was on the road as, you know, a sales rep for a little digital marketing agency, how cool it would be if my calendar could be on this phone that I had finally gotten, right? And, you know, fast forward, you know, we have these devices that have completely changed the way we operate and think and work. And yet, in that paradigm, we have utterly failed to integrate them well into our learning paradigm. To the point where today, teachers ask students to put their phones in a pouch because they're interfering with how they learn. How do we avoid those same mistakes with AI?

Don Fraser, Jr.

Yeah. Well, you know, sadly, education is usually running behind, right? And with phones, you know, people started– young people started to have them, and we didn't spend any time in education thinking about the possibilities, right? And we just need to “shut it down. Stop this,” right? The only thing that we can do is to put an end to it. “Give me your phone. You can pick it up at the end of the day,” right? We didn't sort of pull up the, you know, pull up the lines and sort of take stock, and say just like, “All right, let's all think about this,” right? And bring students in to help you think about it, right? 

So, with AI, I think it's going to be more challenging in some ways, because AI is in everything. AI is not just your phone, right? So, all the technology that students will be using and have access to have AI elements to it, right? And we still haven't quite figured out the ways in which AI is going to be most valuable. But, you know, when ChatGPT was released, everybody just started freaking out about, like, this being the end of learning, right? The worry was students would cheat; they'd use this, you know, for nefarious reasons and… you know, there's, you know… and folks aren't learning to think in the way that they used to. All this sort of stuff, right? This remains to be seen. Who knows, right? But I will say that where people see the hope around AI is that it allows you or I to do the things that matter most. So, if you said that and you applied that to students, if it could help them do the things that they most want to and need to do, then how would we think about it? So, again, I think we have got to ask the right questions; we have to recognize that it's an incredible opportunity, right? And I think we just have to be willing to take some chances, you know? But do it before, like, you know, the toothpaste is already out of the tube in some ways, right? But it's not too late to say, “Hey, how are we going to be able to leverage AI so that…” And then you have a series of “finish that sentence” in, like, 10 different ways, right? 

Rich Portelance

Yeah. And then getting the students’ perspective and input, that changes the paradigm, doesn't it? 

Don Fraser, Jr.

Yeah. Because, you know, there are reports about young people who are like, “I don't like AI.” You know, it depends on who you ask, what age group, and things like that. So, there are varying feelings about AI, right? So, let's not make an assumption that everybody wants it or doesn't want it. Let's figure out in my class, with this group, you know, what's the sentiment? And that sentiment will change, by the way. So, right, you have to be willing to consider whatever the solution is, knowing that you're going to have to adapt.

Rich Portelance

So, Don, we're getting close to the end of the conversation here. I have one more… One more question, and then, you know, I want you to be able to add whatever else you feel I may have missed, because this has been incredibly insightful and, you know, as typical with you and I, we could probably sit here for multiple hours and… 

Don Fraser, Jr.

Nobody wants to hear that, though! 

Rich Portelance

And bore the heck out of a lot of people! But, you know, I'm always engaged with the conversation, so I thank you for joining today. If we're looking ahead, if educators, employers, curriculum developers could change one thing today to better prepare students for a lifetime of learning and work, what would you want them to prioritize, Don?

Don Fraser, Jr.

I would want them to prioritize–I'll go back, I said it earlier–skills and capabilities in the same way that they prioritize content. You know, I think the greatest gift and the hardest work you can do is to know yourself. So, what are we doing in education to help people know themselves, know what they're good at, know where they need to grow, know how their skills have currency and where and in what roles, and know what they should learn next, right? I think right now we're just leaving that up to circumstance and serendipity, and it shouldn't be that way and it doesn't have to be that way, right? I think of, you know, you think about like preventative medicine, right? And the investment in that so that later on people are healthier, right? So if we're prioritizing this understanding, and say that we want learners to know themselves, know their skills and abilities, right? Like, you know, taking these assessments, like, you know, take the… you know, Gallup CliftonStrengths Online Talent Assessment, right? You know, like, wow, so many of these are very insightful, right? But we don't do that until we're, like, in the world of work somewhere down the road, you know? I think we're missing some opportunities to help young people better know themselves in this way, right? Because when you do, you approach your world differently, you know, the choices you make differently, the people around you differently. 

So… and just from a more informed approach, right? I'm a psychology– you know, I was a psych major, you know, my master's was in school psychology. So I'm always thinking about this idea of, like, you know, knowing– know thyself, right? And I don't think we do that. So if I was going to prioritize one thing, it would be that.

Closing Thoughts

Rich Portelance

Don, I really appreciate it. And, you know, your insight is, I think, incredibly valuable. I get excited about this concept of CTE Rising because I think it's a positive affirmation. You know, some people are fearful, but you know, we may have missed the mark or overcompensated in college previously, and now it's coming back to, you know, well, maybe we'll get some of those electricians and plumbers and HVAC guys that, you know, are missing from our society today, because we clearly have lots of amazing opportunities that are out there. People who are either retiring, or even new things like, you know, operating wind turbines and being able to climb on a pole in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. You know, the possibilities are endless. 

I know you're a visionary and you're very thoughtful about how education is applied, how we do it, so thank you for the conversation today. This excites me. Last words are up to you. You got it, man. 

Don Fraser, Jr.

Well, Rich, I just want to thank you again for having me here. You know, I think, like you said, we could go on for a long time about this. But, you know, we're at a pivotal moment. You know, having done this work for a few decades, you know, I've never seen a moment like this. And it's a good thing, right? It's an important moment. And we need to make sure that young people and learners of all kinds–because, you know, like I said, we're both learners still, right, even at our ages–that we're including people in these conversations, right, that we're designing with intention by including the people who are most proximate to the challenges, to the problems, right, and the opportunities. So when we do that, we come out on top. 

So, I'd like more leaders to think about the ways that they include young people and learners and students in their decision-making, because they have an opinion that matters, and they can help you solve some of your biggest challenges if you just call them in.

Rich Portelance

Don, thank you for helping EdGate power education.

Don Fraser, Jr.

Great to be here, Rich. I look forward to future conversations. 

Rich Portelance

Cheers.