The following transcript has been edited for readability. Timestamps have been removed and minor transcription errors corrected. Speaker comments and context have been preserved.

Opening Remarks

Rich Portelance

Welcome, I'm Rich Portelance, and again, I'm the host for today's conversation. Our topic today is “The K-12 Adoption Advantage: Creating Procurement Confidence Through Scalable Systems”. And I think that title gets at something that is becoming increasingly important in education. You know, for years we've been asking about how do we win the RFP (Request for Proposal)? But the most important conversation I have with people, like the folks we have on today, and across the education market, the more that I'm convinced that the RFP itself is really only one piece of the adoption process. By the time an RFP lands on your desk, a lot of decisions have already been made by or are influenced by what a district or state knows about your company, your product, your evidence, your reputation and relationships, and increasingly, your ability to actually deliver on what you've promised. So today, we're going to look at the entire picture: what does it take to be procurement-ready, the systems needed to be in place, how the buyers are expecting– what their expectations are, how are they changing, and how do you build an organization that isn't just capable of winning an opportunity, but capable of successfully delivering and scaling after you win. 

Joining me today are three people who look at this challenge from a very different angle and highly complementary perspectives. Kevin Gray is the founder and CEO of Product & Process. Kevin has spent more than 25 years working across education and edtech, helping organizations with product strategy, marketing development, operations, and process improvement. Jim McVety is a managing partner and executive producer at First Step Advisors. Jim brings decades of experience helping education organizations understand the market, build relationships, strengthen their positioning, and prepare for growth and procurement. And Max Brooks is the CEO of Think, Do, Learn, bringing extensive experience in education, professional learning, workforce readiness, implementation, and organizational change. Welcome to our three wonderful panelists today. I've had the opportunity, as always, to sit down with each of these gentlemen and talk about some of their individual perspectives on the EdGate Powers Podcast. You can view those on our YouTube channel, so please take a look afterwards, and you can get in-depth information as to their perspectives. And let's get– let's get rolling.

Discussion

Rich Portelance

All right, to start with, I want to start at the 30,000-foot level, and then we'll work down. What has changed most about the way K-12 organizations evaluate education companies and solutions today compared with five or 10 years ago? Jim, are buyers fundamentally asking different questions now, or are they asking deeper questions about the same thing?

Jim McVety

It's a good question, Rich, and thanks for having me on this panel. Thanks also for the opportunity to sit alongside Max and Kevin, who bring a lot of experience and expertise to this conversation. To your question about are they asking deeper questions, or have the questions changed, I mean, I think yes is the easy answer, but it's layered, because they're not only asking different questions. I think schools are asking questions on a different cadence. The seasonality of our business is gone. Schools are now evaluating products over and over, even post-purchase. And I suspect that'll be a theme that comes up during the conversation today and in the work we do throughout the year. Schools no longer can select a product, implement it, and then wait for the returns. They're looking for an impact that is immediate and lasting, and that's causing an evaluation process that is no longer cyclical or seasonal, but it's ongoing. So, I think that's a really important shift in the market.

Rich Portelance

And Kevin, from the operational side, what does that change require from companies trying to serve those buyers?

Kevin Gray

Yep, yeah, and thank you. Thank you again for having me on and for, you know, putting me in the company of Jim and Max. The irony is that, as Jim pointed out, the sort of purchasing cycle may be changing, but the things that companies should be doing behind the scenes are the things they probably should have been doing all along, right? So at last week's EdExec Summit, there was so much conversation about evidence and bringing evidence into purchasing. I'm still a little floored that we're just not doing that on a regular basis, that we're not showing why this product works or how this is going to work, right? There's a lot of hand-wringing about the new accessibility documentation that we need to be dealing with, but at the same time, those are problems that, you know, should have been thought of from the beginning. So, I would say what's changed is probably… people are paying attention to things they should have been paying attention to before, but the fundamental things, in a lot of ways, are things that haven't changed. We just need to actually start doing the things we said we've been doing.

Rich Portelance

I agree with that, and thank you. I'm excited to bring in Max, too, because he's going to bring a different perspective. He has the educator and implementation side of it. So, Max, once a district gets beyond the initial evaluation of a product, what are they really looking for in a company they are considering partnering with?

Max Brooks

Well, first, like Jim and Kevin, I want to thank you, and I appreciate the opportunity to speak today. And riding the wave of what's changed, I'll have to give a little anecdotal story. There was a client that had an amazing resource that has evidence being used in districts in different parts of the country, and was actually in the process– had teachers reviewing the product, over a dozen folks in the room, all giving high remarks, etc. But what was not known was that the district was in a recent– or was in a transition for their policy, and were now requiring VPATs (Voluntary Product Accessibility Template). And if you don't know what that is, I’m happy to have that conversation with folks, but that was new to kind of everyone. And so, it kind of froze the whole process mid-procurement or mid- even review. And that's just one of those things that wasn't even talked of 10 years ago, as you asked, Rich: what has changed. So, when you think about things that, because of federal policy or even local policy, those things are constantly changing. So, to Jim's point, you're going to see the whole process constantly in flux, and it's no longer, you know, typically seasonal as you might have seen it 10 years ago. 

That said, when districts do get past those initial hurdles–initial evaluation processes–they're looking for people that they can trust based on long-term relationships. So, the more that you've seen that entity showing up in your community, or the more that you've seen them hand-in-hand with other trusted organizations, the more likely you're going to say, okay, this is someone that we can see beyond just what's on paper as a real partner.

Jim McVety

Oh, and let me jump in there and say Max knows whereof he speaks. I was at an AASA, the School Superintendents Association Conference in San Diego a few years ago, and I watched Max–and I don't know if it was intentional, but it sure seemed strategic–as he positioned himself at the bottom of the main escalator in that event. And everyone going up and everyone coming down put eyes on Max, and he knew 80 percent of the people walking the floor that day. And that both was an amazing move in the moment, but it also was a reflection of him showing up and doing the work in the years leading up to that. So, for those of you either listening in now or at a later date, keep following this guy. He knows.

Max Brooks

Shucks.

Jim McVety

Oh, come on.

Max Brooks

No, Jim, thank you. You're one of the folks who I look up to, and your advice, counsel, and your assessment I hold in high regard, so thank you.

Jim McVety

There's no quid pro quo! I can say something nice about you without you saying something nice about me. It's okay!

Rich Portelance

You know, I appreciate that perspective because personal relationships matter, right? And that story resonates. Now, from a product perspective, Max, are the things that look good on an RFP but differ from solutions that educators can actually adopt and use successfully? Are you seeing some change in that space?

Max Brooks

Whew, RFPs. I've had my fair share, and even the process itself has changed, and I think COVID was one of the things that shifted the entire industry around that. There were many, many districts that, even into the 2010s and possibly even 2020s, we're still requiring vendors to submit seven different binders, collated state, like, an enormous, huge lift, especially on smaller startup organizations, to be aware of the RFP, to be digested, to see, have the internal capacity to even think about responding to it. And if you can, then going through all the processes necessary to document, provide evidence, package it up a certain way, and ship it out by a certain deadline–it's madness. Honestly, it's truly madness. 

And so, some districts have gotten ahead of that, and they've automated some of those things and allowed for, like, digital responses. But now you're in a world where, like, let's be clear: what's happening through a screen, or what you're seeing through a screen, could be authentic; it could be vaporware. And so, districts have to now think through what they're receiving in these submissions and to really get under the hood and say, “Well, can we vet this as being something truly aligned to what we've required in the RFP?” You know, did they come partnered with someone who we've worked with before in terms of, you know, evaluating their standards alignment, for example. So, just a couple of things that I think have shifted, and also some of the changes that have been happening in that space.

Rich Portelance

So, you know, for those that are listening and watching, we're going to break this down into steps. So, step one is really, before the RFP, building procurement readiness. So, I want to start off with Jim in this section, because one of the strongest themes from our podcast conversation was that procurement doesn't really begin with the RFP release. What should an education company be doing six, 12, 18 months before it expects an opportunity to come its way?

Jim McVety

Well, there are three things that I would say are reflected– two of which are reflected in the people I'm joined by–one of which I noted was Max. Get out there, be in the world, be present in the places where your educators and your education decision-makers show up. Last week at the EdExec Conference, which Kevin cited, almost to a person, district administrators, when asked, said, “We need you to show up in these spaces. That's how we know who you are and what you're about.” So, that's the first thing I'd say. 

The second thing I'd say is get your curriculum house in order. So, that's reflected by Kevin, who has been the guide for any number of content development– content providers in developing their content, so that it is not only aligned to standards, but also goes beyond, and including looking at things like cultural relevance and competence in that work, and alignment to the ever-changing needs for accessibility. That's the kind of blocking and tackling that has to happen.

Now, the third thing is reflected by a person not in the room, and that is your customer. The customer voice has to be present six, 12, 18 months before an RFP becomes public. And that customer voice has to show up in your work–in your narrative–and you have to give them the opportunity to speak your story. So those are three things that come to mind, Rich. 

I've stunned him with my answer. So, Kevin, do you want to pick up on any of those themes?

Kevin Gray

Yeah, actually, one of the things I was going to suggest is there are some really good resources in the space to be watching signals and to be kind of figuring out where directions are going to go. You know, Dennis Roche over at Burbio does a really nice job, for instance, of actually tracking board meetings to be able to see what threads and trends folks are talking about. And there's some other resources out there as well, but really thinking through what those, you know, what those look like and getting a sense. 

And then the other thing, and Jim, you and I have talked a lot about this, is starting to build relationships through pilots and through those sorts of materials–building the relationships with the districts and the districts that know districts to be able to be ready for those RFPs, because, yeah, by the time the RFP shows up, someone else is already baked in there, but if you were to– 

Jim McVety

Yeah, they've already baked it. 

Kevin Gray

Yeah.

Jim McVety

Yeah. I mean, your point is a good one. And Burbio is a resource. People are talking about Starbridge, of course, which is a bit of a darling. Keep your eye out for some others that are coming down the line. Some really, highly credible data providers who are steeped in this work and focused only on education. That, to me, is going to be an important shift in that platform-based approach to looking for signals.

But Max, I'd point to you because I think given the fact that you're out in the world so much, you're probably seeing signals that no RFP web scraper could find. So what do you look for, Max, when you're kind of initiating some of those relationships?

Max Brooks

Interestingly enough, I was at ISTE+ASCD (International Society for Technology in Education + Association for Supervision and Curriculum Development) recently–I guess that was June, late June, early July? It all blurs. And walking the expo hall, I spent two days just trying to see what's out there. I hadn't been to ISTE, actually, for quite some time–pre-pandemic even–and so, you know, not having been at one of the premier education conferences historically for seeing the latest technology in action, and seeing, you know, what was most attractive to educators and system leaders, I wanted to see what was out there, and… wow. You know, the gadgetry, the drone cages, the robots. A robot squared up on somebody. Like, it literally, like, backed up, did a stance, and, like, did a kick, and everybody's like, “Cute!” I was raised when Chucky was an actual movie that we were all terrified of– 

Jim McVety

Yeah.

Max Brooks

–and now I'm like, “Hm.” I digress. 

The point was, in a sea of all this technology, what was ringing in my ears as both a father, but also as somebody who deeply cares about the state of education in the world, were the concerns around AI, but also the possibility with AI. And so, when I was, you know, going through this just kind of in the back of my mind, what stood out to me was I ran into a vendor booth that was not full of bells and whistles–it was actually more kind of minimalist. It had a nice branded tablecloth, what looked like a board game from a distance, with some player pieces, and then a small, like, tablet on the screen. And when I started speaking to the gentleman, this was intentional. He's like, “Yeah, you know, I had this app, I had to pay, like, £20,000– he might have said quid, because he was from across the pond. He's like, “I had to get the app developed just as an– to be able to enter the market.” Where in some places, even though he was passionate about this– this math game that he created– I don't know if we want to name-drop it, but it was a fantastic way to engage elementary kids in math, and families, and get them huddled around the table, which is what folks are asking for, right? People are starting to have that kind of backlash against a lot of screen time, and so I was drawn to him and really wanted to engage in conversation. And I won't go, you know, any further on that one, but I'd say that the more that you can tap into that human connection in an age of just overt, you know, artificial, I think that that matters to this day, and folks are looking for that.

Jim McVety

Yeah. Okay. I'd agree. Rich, we did well without you, Rich, but we're glad you're back.

Rich Portelance

You guys carried on well, like true professionals. That was really odd, my computer just completely shut down. But I'm glad I'm back, and thank you for carrying on. I do want to talk about the systems behind the product. Kevin, in our conversation, you described organizations reaching different stages of growth, where what worked at one stage simply doesn't work anymore. What are the warning signs that a company has outgrown its existing process?

Kevin Gray

Generally, one of the first is sort of internal turnover, right? If you are just– if you're just churning through people that's– and you weren't before, that's probably a sign that you need to reevaluate some of your processes. Especially if you're churning through some of your top people, if they're overburdened, they're taking on three or four hats. You know, look, in the startup phase, sure, right? Everybody wears different hats, and everyone loves to say that, but there is a point in a company's maturity where if you're still doing that three, four, five years in, you may be… yeah, you may have missed the boat, and you need to take a hard look at yourself and ask, how well are these processes serving me? Is this still working towards the direction I want? So if you're stalling out, and your people are really, you know, and you're losing good people, it's beyond a wake-up call at that point.

Rich Portelance

Yeah. So, let's put that in some practical terms, Jim. What are the systems that an education company absolutely needs to have in place if it wants to compete successfully for multiple states and districts?

Jim McVety

Well, you know, you see stages–to pick up on Kevin's theme. Stages of growth are not only signaled by turnover, but there's... there's other… I was mindful of a CEO who once said, “I knew we were getting big when we started going from individual birthday celebrations to monthly birthday celebrations. I also knew when we had to lock the supply closet.” So there are, there are all manner of signals out there. But what those two very, you know, light-hearted anecdotes reflect is the move towards a systems-based approach. And I think ultimately, what it comes down to is being really clean on your communications and your information management. 

So, we have clients who work in a Google environment, for example. That's what we work in, and we manage a pretty big portfolio with a lot of moving parts. And we have, you know, it's not perfect, but we have a pretty good system where we're leveraging ClickUp, Google, and Slack. And between those three systems, we've got a pretty good handle on things. It's fascinating because– oh, and I should also mention, and it sounds silly, but for those of you listening in, you're going to appreciate this, we are obsessive about folder and file naming. It is the bane of my existence to walk into a client setting where that is cluttered and shortcuts are used, because if it's being used there, shortcuts are being used in your CRM. And guess what? That's going to mess up all your data. So you have to be really disciplined on the small stuff if you want to be good at the big stuff. And I bet Max knows what I'm talking about.

Max Brooks

I do, but here's what I'll say about that: I think people have to operate in their zone of genius. I've realized that, as a child, I was privileged that my parents, for some reason, were giving me those monthly mail-in packages of cards that I had to sort for some reason–I enjoyed it. And so I think that carried into adulthood, even when I was, you know, working in the school system, and was meticulous about all the file and folder naming. Some would argue in the age of AI and on your Mac, “Oh, it can all figure it out, and you can just keep things as they are, and trust the algorithms to keep everything findable, searchable.” But let's be clear, to Jim's point, what works for one person doesn't work for another. 

But I also recognize that you do want to appreciate folks' neurodivergence. Some people are really passionate about that. Put that person in charge of that, or make sure that person is the auditor of that. Some people just– they'll never, ever conform to it, and, like, forcing them to is actually probably taking away from their productivity somewhere else. So figure out ways internally to help those folks work together in some way where everybody can, again, operate in their zone of genius and keep the things moving, while adhering to protocols and practices that allow you to not fumble the ball at the one-yard line.

Kevin Gray

I'm going to jump in too, Max, and take that step further, because I think the evidence of processes is really important, but also evaluating those processes, because there are certain processes that are outdated, and you can know when, you know, when you've outlived them–people are taking shortcuts; they're working around them. 

So you've got to ask yourself, just having processes isn't enough; it's really asking, is this still serving the problem I was trying to solve? What problems are we trying to solve, and how are we doing that? And I think taking a step back and reflecting on that on a regular basis, and then making changes when needed, is a sign of a mature– and I don't mean mature from a growth stage, but from an intellectually mature organization.

Max Brooks

Can I just add to that, Kevin? That, I mean–fantastic point–having a process for that itself, because some folks will jump on the latest, greatest thing, and as a leader, that's your right. But for your people, it's like, “Wait, we just changed this process,” or “We just–” So the shiny, new cool thing might be truly a game changer, but if it's shifting, it's still, for other folks, cognitively or even just tactically, hard to do. So, making sure there's transparency on when we're going to be even looking at our internal processes to see if we're going to change them. And not even expecting that it's going to happen because we just looked at it. Some folks are like, “Oh yeah, the cycle's coming up, I can't wait for this thing to change.” And it might be like, hey, we're looking at it, but it's still serving us well enough, and we'll have to look at that at a later time for any change. But I digress.

Kevin Gray

Yeah, yeah. I think– but I think you're right. I think, having an understanding of how to deal with change management, pivoting all the time is worse than not pivoting in a lot of ways, because you're just, well, what are we trying to do? Where are we going? What's the end goal? I think good leaders are really aware of where they're taking the organization, and where there– when there are times of detour, how to message that, and how to roll that out. And that's really, really hard to do.

Jim McVety

Clearly, we've all been scarred by that one CEO. And it's not the same person, but we each have that in our history where we've been bounced around a bit. So if we can figure out CEO management, then we–

Kevin Gray

Oof.

Rich Portelance

Good luck. Good luck with that.

Max Brooks

Hey, listen, sometimes it's board management, or peer expectations, or investor management. There are a lot of reasons why, and to go back to transparency matters, and how transparent you need to be, and to what level, and to what degree, all of that comes back to internal trust. And if there's internal trust issues, there's gonna be external trust issues. So Rich asked earlier, like–

Jim McVety

Yeah, that transparency is so key. Yeah.

Max Brooks

Yeah, you know, what are districts looking for?

Rich Portelance

So, I want to frame that up a little bit, because, you know, from– we started off with Jim talking about being organizationally efficient, file-naming conventions, making sure your internal processes are buttoned up. And then, Kevin, you talked a little bit about, you know, how some of these processes need to cut over in your external vendors, and making sure that they're transparent. And then, Max, you brought it around to talking about those interpersonal relationships and making sure that those were well aligned to what your end goals were, and making sure that you were transparent about who you are and what you do. I think those are all really important elements to, you know, setting up a quality company that can be audited, and you feel comfortable with what the results are, right, guys? I mean, is that what you're trying to say is, you know, if someone's going to take a deep look, they want to see from the ground up that your company is buttoned up. 

And what I'm curious about, and I'll ask Kevin specifically, is about the security, because we didn't really talk about that, but my sense is it plays a component in the systems behind the product.

Kevin Gray

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, look, in my podcast with you, Rich, I talked a lot about the fundamentals–privacy and security are absolutely fundamental. If you aren't thinking about that right now, you are likely to get burned. That is– there are a handful of things that you just need to be thinking about. How are you dealing with standards? How are you dealing with accessibility? How are you dealing with privacy? More and more, what's the story around efficacy that you're sharing? How are you reporting and paying attention to things? These are things that if you don't have, it's going to be a struggle. And you may get through the door in an RFP, but you're not going to be able to support your customer in the way that they're expecting once you get to that implementation.

Jim McVety

Yeah, but Kevin, it also, not just that you have it as an organization, but just to connect it back to what Max said, that you've identified the person whose zone of genius–

Kevin Gray

Yes. Yeah.

Jim McVety

–covers that, because you really can't– you should all be informed about issues related to student data privacy, for example. But you really need someone who can say, “That's my zone of genius. I got that.” That's pretty important.

Kevin Gray

Yep. Yeah, I think that's also a question that I know Rich, you're probably going to ask about, which is: how do you stay within your core and then how do you work with third-party folks to do things, right? So, like, EdGate–obviously you guys know a lot about standards. Does it make sense to build up a robust standards expertise within your organization? Probably not, right? Some, so you can function and work with those folks. There are also folks out there that do really, really good work in privacy and data security. That might be a time where you say, “We don't have this expertise internally; we need to turn and get it.” 

And any of those things that I ticked off, there are vendors in the space who can help you with that. I think, again, thinking about this idea of mature leadership and asking the right questions, one of the questions is, “Do I have someone with that zone of genius, to perpetuate Max's term, or do I need to go find it?” But being aware that you need it, and that it needs to exist somewhere in the organization, or be brought in, that's really critical.

Rich Portelance

Yeah, that's a really good point, Kevin. And, you know, anything from the RFP process itself, all the way to, you know, the end cycle when you're delivering, there's probably a vendor who can slide into just about any slot, and I think what, you know, companies have to ask themselves is, “Can I do it as well as the best vendor out there, or is it better to partner in order to be buttoned up along the whole continuum,” right? Because if people see a gap, then they start to wonder if the company is credible enough to, you know, to deliver on what they've said they could deliver on, right? And I'm curious from Max's standpoint, because Max, you– you had been, you know, as a former teacher, you've seen this from both sides of the fence. Does that resonate with you? That, you know, companies potentially with a hole within their process, does that get sussed out in the procurement process?

Max Brooks

Probably not, because I think we see a lot of things in schools that, you know, leave you wondering, “Why?” So, yes, I've seen that from the practitioner perspective, but also from the implementation side, and from the sales side. I mean, there's been… I'll also speak for the managerial side. When you are showing up in a school, and you're ready to support an educator through the use of a tool that was acquired many layers beyond that actual end user, and you start to wonder, like, how did this happen? Especially if you know there's another alternative resource from the same provider that is more suited to the needs that you're seeing right in front of you, you start to wonder–at least see–there are disconnects often between what is told, what is sold, and what is happening. And I’ll make it rhyme–it’s going to end up just being old. 

Kevin Gray

Well done, Max.

Max Brooks

On the fly! But really, it doesn't matter when there's misalignment, because you need folks from the end user, right? Children are the ultimate stakeholders, and the teacher, time and time again from research, is the number one factor in that child's success. So if we know that, we have to listen to them. And we also have to educate and inform them, because practitioners don't always understand business cases, and so they might not care either. So how do we help them understand? If you truly have a valuable resource or product, how do you show them that this is at least as good, if not better than what you're currently using? And that comes from: can it hold up against the standards that the other thing was vetted on, that they're required to teach. Like, they're required to put on the board sometimes the standard of today! You know, it's that granular in some places. So, let's support them through that by showing, “Hey, we have a product. It has been vetted and has been built with you in mind and your success in mind. And here's how we're going to get it together.”

Rich Portelance

So I want to remind everyone, if you have a question for Max, Jim, or Kevin, please put it into the Q&A. We're happy to answer those questions. We have three wonderful experts on the panel today, so they're revved up and ready to answer your questions. I do want to talk a little bit about evidence, credibility, and trust. You know, we've kind of built towards this in the conversation so far. Kevin, you were particularly emphatic about evidence when we spoke in our podcast. We're moving from “people are using our products” towards “we can demonstrate that our product is actually producing an outcome.” How should smaller companies think about building that evidence based on… based– when they don't have the resources of a major publisher?

Kevin Gray

Yeah. I would say, first of all, be aware of the ESSA (Every Student Succeeds Act) Tiers of Evidence, and be thinking about which ones are realistic for you. I also think, yes, many of these places do not have the resource bases that a publisher may have, but there's grant funding available for resource– for efficacy testing. There are groups that you can work with for that. 

I also think, you know, being aware of the research that's come before you, that is something that you don't need external resources to handle. Be aware of the research that's been done on your category, and at least be able to connect your product to that–that's bare minimum. Where this kind of platform and the research shows that this kind of platform does this within the schools. That's– that doesn't take a whole lot to do, but it at least presents some level of evidence. 

And then, you know, I'm a big fan of working with schools and working with them to then build a body of evidence as well. Not everyone's going to be able to do an RCT (Randomized Controlled Trial), but there are some– there are schools that are open to working with you and providing, you know, providing that evidence. You may need to be able to give a discount, or you may be doing a free pilot in exchange for that data, but there are people out there that'll work with you about it, with it. The challenge is if you don't think about it, you won't do it. But if you make it a fundamental problem, “I need to be able to show that this works,” I think you can get pretty clever in finding ways to reach at the level that you are. Jim, you're nodding your head. I'm sure you've got stuff to add there.

Jim McVety

Well, I'm– I mean… Yes, all around. What's interesting, though, so I don't want to, like, double down or plus one what you just said, but I am curious, Kevin, what, I mean– what do you think about The Reading League or EdReports, and the role that they play in establishing your evidence and credibility?

Kevin Gray

I think they're really important. You know, I, in a previous role, partnered with EdReports pretty closely. That's a pretty rigorous process. The challenge with some of these third-party vettings is, and I know with EdReports, it's high quality because of the care they take, but it's also a long process. So I think part of it is asking yourself, what can I do on a timeframe? But there also are a lot of other organizations that will do product validation for you. They're certainly not the only ones. So, you know, take a look at that space as well.

Jim McVety

Ohhh.

Rich Portelance

And that kind of gets us to the next point I wanted to make, Jim, is about increasingly it's important to hear, buyers want to hear from other people. So it's not just about what you say about your company, but about what other people may say about you. What's your thought on that, and how important are customer references within the process?

Jim McVety

I don't know if I can overstate how important it is to have customer references. But, you know, that's table stakes; it's easy for me to say that. So let me get precise. Case studies totally, you know, makes sense, but they shouldn't be case studies of just the school. You should have the individual point person who led the implementation and experienced the outcomes, giving their personal voice in that case study, ideally with their photo, their title, along with the school logo. It's going to be really important: if you work towards that level of depth, you're going to achieve that degree of credibility. 

I think the other thing to consider is that… Two things to consider, actually. One is that the voice can't be of the same kind of customer over and over, and over again. 80% of the students are served in 20% of the schools, or something like that? I forget. Max, you probably know numbers better than I do, but let me back up a little bit. It's easy to get preoccupied with the big districts, but there's only so many of those going around. Most students are served by small districts, and they get short shrift when it comes to customer voice. I would elevate those voices in small districts, or in historically underserved communities, or students– or schools that serve historically marginalized communities. Those voices need to be raised considerably, and we don't see them enough. It's one thing to succeed at an elite institution, but it's another to succeed, you know, where the work is hard and more deserving.

The last thing I would say is that your story doesn't always have to be perfect. We heard last week from districts who said, you know, “I really don't mind getting your reference accounts, but I'd like to hear from schools where it didn't go well and what you learned from that.” So be prepared with those stories as well, and I think you'll do well.

Rich Portelance

Yeah, that's a really good point. You know, perfection is only achieved, you know, over long, long periods of time, and it's through the process of failure that we achieve it. So people want to see, you know, some of those shortfalls in that year and be cognizant of those things, right? You– you– there's, there's some soul behind what you're just trying to sell. And so, that leads me to ask, you know, are there some credibility mistakes that you see companies make in that process, Jim?

Jim McVety

Well, I guess I would say that… the credibility mistake I would think relates… There's a lot– Listen, I've made all the mistakes you could possibly conceive of, so I'm going through my portfolio of failures, picking out which one should I really lean on. But I won't do that. I will say, however, that in today's climate, I think the big mistake that I'm seeing is the hype–there's just too much hype. There's just too much exuberance and confidence and outrageous claims about transformation. Transformation doesn't happen when people get loud–it happens in the quieter spaces when people do the real work. So, for me, I think a credibility factor is diminished if you're telling me constantly just how great and wonderful you are. Max, what do you feel? I think you're muted, Max.

Kevin Gray

I think you're muted.

Max Brooks

I'm just thinking about, you mean, like, my AI? Like, it tells me all my ideas are brilliant! Like, it's telling me everything is great; what do you mean? It's– I'm brilliant! My AI tells me all the time. It’s the best thing ever, it's the best idea ever–it told me, it said it. “Your brilliance is unmatched!”

Rich Portelance

And Max, what does that look like from the other side? Because you've been on the procurement side of things, right, as a teacher, and you're looking at these vendors coming at you, and they say, “Oh, I have the best thing ever for your classroom!” How was that received, and..?

Max Brooks

So, this is– Jim mentioned AASA earlier, so I'll piggyback a story from there. Young guy, I mean, he means well, probably a very nice person, but someone brought this person up to me, or walked up to me with this person, and they introduced themselves, and they said, “Oh, this is Max,” and, you know, “He's a good guy,” whatever. And this person shook my hand and said, “Hey, yeah, man, this conference is crazy, like, you have to actually get to know people! You can't just pitch!” And he couldn't have been but 20-something, right? He was a young guy, and I just chuckled, I laughed, but I also was just like, “Oh, our future…” because–

Jim McVety

Yeah.

Max Brooks

–to your point around the hype, right, there is a culture around immediacy, around getting to the unicorn status, around, you know… Unfortunately, I think it's a little bit of greed. I don't begrudge anyone the chance to pursue the American Dream, to turn a buck, even, but like, if you're leading with that, it's so transparent and people can see it, they can smell it, they can see it from a mile away. So instead of thinking about how great this product is, like, first, have you asked yourself, or have you asked your organization, “What is it I'm trying to replace or improve that's already being done?” You know, because if there's already something going well, then you're up against a huge mountain trying to go and replace or supplant something that might have all sorts of entrenched reasons, that even if you do have a better product or a product as good, you could be disrupting a whole ecosystem. You don't know if there's a family or a history that was involved in producing that current thing that's used, you don't know the legacy of that. So, culture matters; understanding context really, really matters, and I think if more people spent time doing that, as opposed to hyping up what they've built, we'd get a lot further, a lot faster.

Kevin Gray

Let me jump in, because there are a couple of things I want to add as well. One, Jim, I want to go back to your idea of looking at the smaller districts and the underserved districts. That's also just really good business when you're trying to get into the K-12 space. I work with a lot of companies that come from overseas, and they say, “Yeah, we're gonna get it, we're gonna go to Texas!” And I say, “Not if I can help it.” Or, “Do you have, you know, a couple million dollars to burn through?” Because it's expensive, it's hard to do, and it's flashy, right? But what we know works more often for more companies–and there are companies that should go in and do that. That's a good path. There's a good path for a lot of different people. So I don't want to poo-poo that if you're the kind of company where that's a good fit. But we also know that building relationships in small areas that match really well with your– with the problem you're trying to solve, that will beget customers, right? That land and expand idea of, let me find a geographic space, or a demographic that this works really well in, and let me start small and build some relationships from some trust, and then that will grow. 

The other thing I'd add to this is we're talking mostly about procurement from a vendor selling to schools, but almost all of these rules also apply to third-party vendors selling to vendors that sell to schools, right? Jim, and Max, and I– and Rich, we all know this because that's the world we're all in. And I would say, I do not think you can underestimate the power of relationships across the board, no matter where you are in that cycle. I also don't think you can underestimate some of the other things we've talked about, knowing, you know, where the directions our folks are going–not waiting for the RFP, but building those relationships. So I want to make sure that's said, that this is not just for companies selling to schools–it's for companies selling to those companies as well.

Rich Portelance

And let's take the walk from that procurement to implementation. So now, your company that you want to bid… I'm curious, Max, about what does a company need to understand about what happens after that contract is signed. Can you kind of elucidate that process for us?

Max Brooks

So post-sale, I think people wanna celebrate, but to me, that's just the beginning. You have to think about the duration and the term that that sale was made. In some cases, you might have district rules that only allow you to have one-year contracts, but hopefully, you've done the front work to get as much of a long-term commitment with that partner, because as I mentioned earlier, constant change is good for no one. So, the more you set expectations on the front end and say, “Hey, we might not even be as successful as we would like to be in the first year, based on how we've defined success,” and being totally transparent with that. Some changes do take time to take hold. So if you're not saying that up front, if you're just saying, “Oh, as soon as these lights turn on, it's gonna be wonderful,” the lights might not get turned until November. And then there's, you know, Thanksgiving break, and then the winter break, and your product might not start getting actually used and implemented at scale within a single school, for example, until January. So how could you expect to see magical changes in just a couple of months of implementation? Because really, the test is coming, and there's still a lot of emphasis put on high-stakes testing, and you don't want to be up against the review panel, or somebody looking to renew that or cut something, and you're saying, “Oh, but our data is such and such.” 

If you've said that all at the front, you can expect, hopefully after the sale, to be engaging in those customer success conversations where you're tracking the data or ensuring the efficacy of implementation and usage of whatever the service is, and getting the feedback, and looking at the quantitative and qualitative analysis of your product or service. And that should–

Jim McVety

And none of that should be a surprise, Max, because what you laid out around the timeline, the staging, you know, the fact that it might be October or November before your system's really operational, and your impact may not be felt, none of that should be a surprise to the schools you're working with. They should all be well aware of what the timeline is. And that is a factor that folks try to avoid those conversations when they should walk right towards them. So what Max laid out was perfect, and it should not be a surprise to schools. In fact, one of the best sales reps I ever saw used– created her own piece of collateral, and it was a– basically a fold-out of, here's what the rollout process looks like. It eventually got adopted, but no one could believe her that it worked so well. She'd say, “Here's what happens after you sign on with us,” and it was all these steps. And I remember watching others being like, “Are you crazy? Are you telling them how much work that has to go into it?” But every one of her customers said, “Okay, I get it, and now I know what to expect.” So, Max is absolutely right, and we just have to make sure everyone's aware.

Kevin Gray

There are also two more elements to that: making sure you don't bobble the handoff, so when you're going from the salesperson–and again, this is as true for B2B (business-to-business) as it is to B2E (business-to-employee)–making sure that when you're making the sale, you already have everything in place to do the implementation well, because, you know, it can't just be that the sales happens, and then the team walks away. 

Another thing that was really interesting that came up in one of the tables at EdExec last week was, as a company grows, right? So let's say you start with a bunch of those small schools, and you're now growing to a place where you're starting to take on bigger and bigger schools. A question you've gotta ask yourself is: how are you going to still provide a level– or the same level, or a level of support to those early adopters, right? It's like, let's say you're working with some rural schools and suddenly you're in Chicago Public Schools. It's gonna be really, really, really enticing to spend your energy with Chicago Public Schools, but those other schools that you started with are equally as important, and you've gotta make sure that you're providing a level of support for them. The level might need to change because you've scaled, but you need to make sure they're still felt, to what Jim said earlier, that they're heard and that they still feel that they've got a stake in this.

Rich Portelance

So, Kevin, kind of what you're saying is that implementation readiness should actually be part of the procurement process and the strategy. You know, you can talk about this, you can lay it out, because that's going to help the customer to understand better how you're going to implement it. And then, perhaps not over-promise, but over-deliver?

Kevin Gray

Yeah, I mean, look, this is something that I was taught really early on in running organizations. That's one example of it, but every time there's a handoff from one group to another, if you don't have a transition in place and the ability to make that transition smoothly, you're gonna fumble it. So, that's from sales to implementation; that's, you know, in other words, you know, building a product and then delivering that product. You've really got to make sure that you're thinking through, in a way that your customer isn't even aware of to make that transition as smooth as it can be.

Rich Portelance

And Jim, from your experience, how does a successful implementation become part of the next procurement strategy or decisioning? Do you see that happening?

Jim McVety

Well, I think… absolutely. I think what's critical is understanding that adoption of a product should not be confused with selection, and that's usually what happens. “Oh, well, we've adopted, you know, the ACME curriculum.” To reach the threshold of adoption means that it's been threaded into the everyday activities of the school. Now, that might be every day, every week, or whatever the ideal cadence is for the use of that product. Until it reaches that threshold, you have actually not adopted that product. So your team should be working towards that definition. Not the definition as historically presented, which is selection, but more to adoption. Because once you get that right, then you get the customer stories emerging, then you get the educator voices saying, “This is transformative,” and they'll start to tell your story for you. And by the way, it makes your renewals and organic growth that much easier. 

The one thing I would put in is that–and I've already alluded to this or mentioned it–not everything goes perfectly, so you have to have a plan for when things don't go according to plan–and that is a place where a lot of folks fall down. And you should anticipate that the human condition will prevail, which means it will be less than perfect. So, have a plan for that and then you'll be okay.

Rich Portelance

So, let's talk a little bit about scaling smart, not just scaling fast, because it really sounds important based on the conversation so far. And I wanted to ask Max: we talk about sustainable– you know, sustainability and scaling within a district. What does it look like from that side of the table? And then we can kind of question these guys about how you get there.

Max Brooks

Yes, scale is important to think about. I was reading something actually this morning; it was about scale versus growth, and folks can often think or conflate the two. “Oh, we've got great growth because they're hiring more people, or they're even getting more bookings,” but they're not set up to actually scale. They're actually just getting heavier and heavier under the same small legs–they're not building a broader, stronger platform or foundation to build upon. And so, when you think about what it takes to scale, you have to be thinking way down the line, or… I still have not yet been to a hockey game, although I was outside when the Washington Capitals won. I did go downtown and celebrate from outside the stadium. But you got to skate to where the puck is going. You have to know, okay, if we're trying to be in x number of schools, for example, to make x number– amount of impact, what do we need to be doing now to get there? Starting with the end in mind really, really matters, not just for the folks internally to better, you know, rev up for the work that needs to happen, but to then be able to use the relationships and networks you need to ensure that you can build that foundation. So if you know, “Hey, we want to be in these states by x year,” then okay, what do we need to be doing in advance of that? “Oh, EdGate, they're already going to help us in, you know, getting aligned and in those places,” so let's start that conversation now, so that in two years, we're already ready to respond to RFPs, for example. Knowing your adoption cycles. There's no reason to start building or pursuing some ELA (English language arts) products if the state just went through an ELA adoption and is not going to do another for seven years. So, unless you've got a six year plan on how to build something to, you know, hopefully put out in the market in that next cycle, you know, do your research, do your homework, and you'll better be prepared for true scale as opposed to just the flashy, quick growth.

Jim McVety

So I know we're coming up on time, but last week, SmartBrief and Tech & Learning released a state-of-school purchasing report, and it's worth a read–go find them on Tech & Learning. One of the data points they cited was a lack of standards alignment as being a major hurdle to adoption, which was really a surprise, because groups like EdGate are out there, and the work should be done. 

And I want to build a bridge to something else that is adjacent to this work, but we have a nice partnership with Cooley LLP, which is a global law firm that does a lot in edtech practice, and in a recent interview I had with them, we talked about the fact that when things go wrong, it's not when you should start a relationship with an attorney. You should have a relationship in place long before then so that when you need them, they're ready to go. And that holds true for your standards alignment practice, by the way, which is what Max is pointing out. You can't at the 11th hour go and retrofit your product to meet a set of standards. You have to have advanced warning, you have to skate to where the puck is going to be so that your product is ready at the time that the market needs it to be ready. So, some salient points from Max that I just wanted to echo.

Max Brooks

Go Caps.

Rich Portelance

No, I appreciate that, Jim. And I, you know, I've talked about this with Kevin before; it's, you know, kind of anticipating the market, understanding where they're at. And if you have one state or one district, and you think there are complementary places to go where you can take what you've done and put it in place with little extra effort, you know, and having the alignment done, you know, there's some steps to get there. Kevin, can you elucidate on that? Because I know we've spoken about it before, and, you know, that's organizational efficiency, right?

Kevin Gray

Yeah, yeah, I mean, it talks a bit about what we talked about before, of knowing the market and knowing where you're probably gonna be a good fit. If you are aligning, you know, content in New York, you probably wouldn't go to Florida next, right? Like, having an understanding of where your similarities are. It's also– it's not just about making sure the content is aligned–it's also making sure you have the right infrastructure to track that, right? And I know, Rich, EdGate can help with stuff like that. If you've got an edtech product, make sure you've got a way to find, deliver, and report against multiple sets of standards, not one. When we were prepping for this, Max had a good question. He said, “Look, we all get paid to give advice to people, so how much secret sauce should we give away?” But I'll give this one away: I cannot believe how many times, when somebody comes from overseas, I have to explain to them that there's state standards, and there are 50 of them, but there are actually more like 100 of them, and you've got to be aware, and you need to be aware that you're tapping into an ecosystem, not delivering to a single state. 

And that's true for so much other stuff. I mean, doing the prep work on data privacy, for instance, those rules differ by state. So having an understanding of the global picture, it's not just a federated system that you need to apply to. Do your homework–you don't need to implement for every single state if you're not going into that state, but do understand where the differences are so that you can think like a programmer who's building modularly, and then can be able to add the hooks, and the bells, and whistles to go from one state to the next. It's really like, some level– please, please just have some level of system-oriented thinking, not just chasing the puck.

Closing Thoughts

Rich Portelance

Hey, thank you for that, Kevin. And we're going to have to wrap up. We can talk for two hours easily because there's more to cover. But I want to ask you guys each a final question. If you were advising an education company today that wants to be significantly more competitive three years from now, what's the one thing that you would tell them to start doing right now? Jim?

Jim McVety

Listening–that's my through line. Listen to your customers, listen to Rich and his team, listen to Kevin, listen to Max. You can't enter this work with a good idea unless you've taken the time to really listen and really pay attention. So, listening is the one thing that I would call on for everybody, everywhere, all the time.

Rich Portelance

Max?

Max Brooks

Back to the statewide thing, I've been to 47 of the 50 states, just a couple more to go. But in the vein of partnerships, find people like Erica White with EriTech Consulting who've traveled the nation and internationally doing the post-sale implementation of the various tech. You could try to stand up your own internal team around training on your specific product and try to get out to the market, or certify somebody who already understands what it's like to use really good edtech, who has relationships in districts, who the educators are familiar with showing up at their schools, and figuring out a way to scale that as well.

Rich Portelance

And Kevin?

Kevin Gray

And I'd say build genuine relationships and be curious about what other people are doing. Don't look at the relationships as transactional; just build relationships for relationships' sake, and understanding the market, because they will pay dividends later, and the authentic relationships will come back time and time again.

Rich Portelance

Kevin, Max, Jim, thank you all for this really powerful and excellent conversation. We look forward to sending out the webinar to those who didn't attend. Thank you, everyone, for attending, and we'll see you next time on the EdGate Powers webinar series.

Jim McVety

Thanks, everybody. Take care now.

Kevin Gray

Thanks, all. Bye.

Max Brooks

Thank you.